Amateur Scientist Gordon Holmes on Scotland's Loch Ness, The Legendary Monster, and The Scientific Unknown

Back in 2007, I wrote this blog post about the Loch Ness Monster, in which I referenced Gordon Holmes, the man who took footage of a mysterious creature in the Loch. Recently I had the pleasure of chatting with Gordon, who provided many insights into the world's fascination with both the Loch and its reputed "monster."  Here's our interview--all photos supplied by Gordon Holmes.

 Are you a scientist by profession?

For twenty-two years I worked my way up from a Machine Tool Craftsman to a Design Engineer.

Then, when manufacturing went duff, I worked at Bradford University, Yorkshire, as an IT/Media Technician for another 22 years. Now I've retired early, so I have much more freedom.  

What got you interested in searching for Nessie?

Like most people, I have always been interested in the scientific unknown. So in 2003, I decided to finally  investigate the so-called Loch Ness Monster phenomena.  During the next four years, I visited the Loch on six occasions, armed with 7 X 50 Binoculars and Video Camera. However, there was no sign of Nessie.

Do you live near Loch Ness?

I live in a Yorkshire town called Shipley. Which is about 350 miles South of Loch Ness in England via roads and motorways. Journey time is about 10 hours, having several stops on route.

 You seem to have invented a great deal of sophisticated equipment. Do you have patents on your inventions? Do you work with a team, or alone?

No, I cannot patent anything on the equipment side since, I basically am utilising several units into a complete assembly. Anyone can do this, it just needs a bit of imagination and some technical know-how in mechanics, dynamics, electronics and, say, instrumentation. I have been fortunate to have experience in these topics during my career and hobbies. Most people could achieve all this; the main challenge is overcoming the fear to attempt it in the first place. Belief in the force, Luke or Lucy!

On the day that you got your famous footage, were you taken by surprise? Or were you expecting to find something?

On Saturday 26th May 2007 at about 9 PM (British Summer Time) I began to have doubts about my past 4 years and approx 160 hours attempting to observe the Loch Ness Monster, but with no luck. I had virtually decided not to investigate it in future. Although, one hour earlier I observed a good omen, a rainbow across the Loch. Then, whilst I was sat in the car, 70 foot above the loch (parked in a small parking area), around
 9: 30 PM, I noticed something moving tangentially across my line of sight about 150 yards away. I grabbed the camcorder and dashed next to the edge of the parking area. 

It took me about 20 seconds before I caught in through the camcorder viewfinder. For the next 2 minutes, I recorded, panned and zoomed in and out on the moving object. It seemed to be moving about 6mph. During this time, I also looked at it with just my eyesight. It was jet black but, appeared to be a couple of feet above the loch level with the water flowing over it. It was very aerodynamically shaped, like a Dolphin or a Big eel's head. Finally, it went out of visible range. When I stopped filming, I started shaking, for I knew this was going to be a massive sighting. A year later, Scottish TV told me their webpage showing my sighting, had about 1.8 million hits in the first 2 weeks!

DId you read about the Loch Ness Monster as a child?

 I was aware of the Loch Ness mystery from about the age of 10 years (1962) when my Mother bought me a small glass-like Nessie (actually, it was probably meant to be a stylish swan). My oldest Brother took me camping in Scotland during the early days of Skylab. For I remember seeing a large solar flare flowing off the low down, hazy sun. We had stopped near the shores of Loch Ness when it happened. (Note: Gordon warns that people should not look directly at the sun.  :) )

Why do you think the legend of the Loch Ness monster is so enduring?

When you observe tourists standing next to the Loch, they are praying to see Nessie. Whether they are from the US, Canada, Japan or Europe, they all are desperate for a Sighting. They want to believe, but should Nessie move quickly towards them, everyone would scream and quickly vanish, not surprisingly. 

Do we really want mysteries like this to be solved? Or is the joy in the quest?

As you say, it is the quest to solve the mystery that brings out our efforts. If we then solve it, the challenge has dissipated. I suppose if we knew all the Universe's biggest mysteries, then what would we search for? Fear not, though, is it likely we Humans will solve everything? Very unlikely, since we will probably be extinct long before then.

You've been to Loch Ness many times, but to most of us in America it's just the name of a famous body of water. What is the most striking thing about Loch Ness?

Since 2003, I believe I have had seventeen visits to investigate the Loch and Nessie. One year I visited four times. Usually, it is for a one week duration.

Loch Ness has many different aspects/treasures to it. One of the major influences is the weather. 

A foggy, murky loch has a mystical, frightening feel to it.

A bright, sunny loch would be wondrous and delightful.

Four days of continuous rain at Loch Ness would obviously be depressing.

Your 2007 webpage blog mentioned a romantic legend, which is something I never thought of, Julia. 

A child would be excited, but would also experience a scary-like sense.

To me it's a vast expanse I know well, a sort of friend, a second homecoming. The weather can change within minutes, so its never boring. However, the Real Monster of Loch Ness ia the Midge, a tiny biting fly thing. If the loch is calm and it is about to rain, beware of the Midge - aaarr!

Do you believe in the Loch Ness Monster?

Reports of Monster sightings at Loch Ness go back centuries, even to Saint Columba - 565 AD. For many years the locals would not discuss, if they had a sighting, since, they were very superstitious. However, based on hearsay, they describe a horrible looking Beastie. From the 1930s, there have been many hoaxes, and unfortunately it still happens up to the present day. The Experts agree that my footage was genuine, but they do not agree what it was. There is a TV Programme called, 'River Monster' and the Chap it is based around, catches very large and rare fish all over the world. He proves the local legends are indeed, true. 

Therefore I believe one or more large, scary looking Monsters could exist in Loch Ness over the centuries. Based on my footage, I would guess I filmed two large eels or dolphins (about 8 to 12 foot long), although, I don't believe anyone else has observed Dolphins in the loch before.

Thank you so much for chatting with me, Gordon!


Finally, here's an interview with Gordon on YouTube from the time of his sighting.

Revisiting Gordon Holmes: Yorkshireman, Amateur Archaeologist, and Loch Ness Investigator

This lovely painting by Yorkshire artist Valerie Shepherd (used with permission) captures the imaginary view of the Loch Ness "Monster." The idea of an unknown creature swimming deep in a Scottish lake has fueled the imagination of many a mystery-lover, and blurry photographs of alleged sightings have made the monster, and her legendary Loch, a part of our cultural literacy. Gordon Holmes, too, has long been fascinated by Loch Ness and its legends, but he looks at the creature from a scientific perspective, and there is evidence, Holmes attests, that Loch Ness does, in fact, hold secrets yet to be revealed.

Gordon Holmes setting up Time-lapse camera at Dores, Loch Ness.

Yorkshireman Gordon Holmes and I connected back in 2017 when his footage of a mysterious, fast-moving creature in Scotland's Loch Ness became a sensation. The footage in question was widely viewed and discussed. You can find the original post here.

Gordon has been an amateur scientist for more than four decades, and he continues to pursue not just the Loch Ness mystery and "Nessie," but many of the mysteries that appear all around him in the Yorkshire countryside, where the land, first occupied after the retreat of the Ice Age, has historically been trodden by Romans, Early Britons, and Vikings. Gordon has developed a collection of artifacts, some of which are so valuable that they must be locked in a vault.

In following his scientist's instincts, Gordon has accumulated a fair amount of evidence to support the idea of a heretofore-unseen creature in the depths of Loch Ness--a 30-foot creature that appeared on Sonar a year after he took his footage. Below are some pieces of evidence, along with his own diagrams based on previous descriptions and his own experience at the Loch. (Captions by Gordon Holmes). I've saved the best image for last.

Nessie's side head view based on my latest research.

My 2008 Sonar contact of a 30 foot unknown Creature in 65 foot depth of Loch Ness.

Nessie's total length view (in black & white) based on my latest research.

My hypothetical 1933 Spicer Image based on description of Nessie 

crossing road and then entering Loch Ness.

My Loch Ness (after the Ice Age) artwork. Just before Nessie's Ancestors moved in. 

F

Front view of my 2000AD possible Skull find at Whitby, Yorkshire (just 250 miles from Loch Ness as the Monster swims). Showing potential Nessie's Ancestor (early Jurassic). NOT FOR SALE below 4 million Dollars  ; - )"

Gordon plans to return to Loch Ness, perhaps in the spring, because he has new equipment. that he wants to try out in quest of Nessie--specifically, a cosmic ray detector and a magnetometer. Gordon Holmes, however, does not devote all of his time to Nessie research. The previously-mentioned study of the terrain in Yorkshire, something he has done seriously since age 25, has allowed him to 

decode at least seven different carvings on the cup & ring stones. one of which  might include an ancient star map (as covered in The Telegraph and Argus). In addition, his discovery of a fossilized skull in Whitby led him to theorize about a Nessie ancestor (see photo above), and a stone carving led him to finding what he dubbed "A Stone-Age Selfie."

Gordon Holmes has authored a number of books on his areas of interest. (All titles are now out of print).

Gordon's dedication to history and to the spirit of discovery have made him a prominent figure, but he's in it for the science; therefore, he is willing to consider all possibilities.

A still photo taken from Gordon's 2007 video at Loch Ness.

The image is one of two moving things Gordon saw in the water.

Here are the theories, in his own words: "It has taken me 20 years to reach the following conclusions based on my best  evidence, re; the still from my Holmes 2007 Loch Ness Sighting: [above] :

1 The Image was produced by freak waves forming the outline of two Creatures.

2 It was a quite by chance video footage of two unknown  robotic submarines.

.

3 The shape, if proved to be the outline of a Creature, is unknown to Science.

 Hence, this must be The Loch Ness Monster!!!"

My Favorite Mystery: Loch Ness

I've always been fascinated by the legend of the Loch Ness Monster. The fact that it's called a
"monster" at all, and not just a "mystery," shows that we all love our bogey stories, and we love the thought of something undiscovered out there, like a UFO or life on other planets. In a way, I'm content to just let all those mysteries be. It's the mystery that creates the wonder, not the solution.

This famous photo of "Nessie" was taken by a surgeon on vacation at Loch Ness in the 1930's. I believe it's the most famous photo of the monster. However, recently someone else has added to the Nessie museum of evidence. A man named Gordon Holmes has video footage of something he saw in the Loch.

From ABC News: "'I couldn't believe my eyes when I saw this jet black thing, about 45 feet long, moving fairly fast in the water,' said Gordon Holmes, the 55-year-old a lab technician from Shipley, Yorkshire, who took the video Saturday."

Holmes' video has got people talking again, and the skeptics say he has done it just in time for tourist season. But the romantics like me say that the monster does exist--that in fact he cannot live there alone, but must have a family. What he is remains a mystery, and that mystery is compounded by the fact that Loch Ness is huge, and deeper than the North Sea.

Scientists have tried to find the monster before, but without luck. The question is, do we really want it found? Or would we prefer to cling to possibility?

(image: http://ctap295.ctaponline.org/~bcutherb/Loch%20Ness%20Monster%20large.JPG)

Lake Monsters and Their Legends

I've posted a couple of times about the Loch Ness Monster, a legend that I find fascinating. But David Bennet of British Columbia pointed out that BC has two of its own legendary lake monsters, called Ogopogo and Cadborosaurus. David revealed that "Ogopogo is a lake monster, like Nessie, supposedly living in Lake Okanagan, in the interior of BC. Cadborosaurus, or Caddy to his friends, is a sea monster supposedly living in the waters off Victoria's breakwater, which shelters the Inner Harbour area."

This was a revelation to me, since I thought Loch Ness was the only story of this kind. Now, after some research, and with the tip from David, I have found that many a lake has its attendant monster, or legend thereof, and that there is much folklore regarding the creatures. There are plenteous websites that offer information about the lake legends, like this one and this one and many more. And David's BC lake creatures are not alone by a long shot!

What this tells me is that many people, like me, crave mysteries. We want things to be unsolved and larger than life, because that means that we can hold onto our fascination and our hope of something compelling. Do I think that one of these lake monsters will be found? Of course I can't rule it out. New species (or really old ones) have been located before--why not in the bottom of a lake? But will it bother me if they are never found? Not really. These sea creatures are already alive in the imaginations of thousands of people, and they'll stay there as long as we have the capacity to think and dream.

What's your favorite legend?

Photo link here.

Unsolved and Provocative

According to the Times Online and writer Albert Jack, there are ten compelling mysteries that continue to haunt the world--in many cases for years and years after their initial appearances.

The Loch Ness Monster, (listed at number four), is a perennial favorite, not only for of the lovely, lonely setting of this legend, but because of the potential surprises that one might still find at the bottom of a deep, dark Loch.

But perhaps every mystery fan's favorite is Albert Jack's number two: the Disappearance of Agatha Christie in 1926--a mystery never really explained to the satisfaction of the public.

The most fun parts of this post, though, are the comments underneath it. :)

The Haydens, L.C. and R.L., Talk about Writing, Roswell, and The Wrong Side of the Miranda

 

Hi, L.C and R.L! Thanks for chatting with me.

R.L., you wrote a novel called Cover-Up about the Roswell incident. Okay, I’m all ears. What really happened at Roswell?
That is probably the most asked question I’ve heard. I know that everyone wants one of the investigators to jump up and down screaming, “I’ve found it, I’ve found it.” But that isn’t going to happen. I am a firm believer that something did happen, maybe just not what the people are saying. Possibly the military created this incident to cover-up a bigger one that happened elsewhere, which is the premise of Cover-Up.

Your website says that while you were in the Philippines, you “experienced [your] first UFO event.” I am a person who wants to believe in the Loch Ness Monster. Ever since I watched Close Encounters I have scanned the night sky with great curiosity. So I’m dying to know: what was your UFO event?
In the novel, I tell the story of that event, but in essence, one night while I was special handling radio messages in the naval communications center, one of the machines started to ding-a noise alerting me that a ‘special message’ was on its way. I had to visit the communications library to find the manual that told me how to special handle that particular message. (JANAP 146B).
I was to break the hard copy machine (this was a radio teletype center), before they sent the message, then before I sent it out to the next station (in Hawaii) I was to break all the backup ticker tapes on the machine I sent it on. Afterwards, the tape of the message itself was to be ripped into four pieces and scattered in four burn bags to be destroyed at the end of our shift.

The message was about a contracted merchant ship delivering goods to Viet Nam. It had seen something fall into the ocean, and when they got closer, they thought something was under the water. They called for backup before losing all their electricity. A navy destroyer showed up a few hours later, and both of them were stranded without any power. About an hour after the destroyer showed up, a flying saucer showed up and dropped into the water. For about a half hour, there were flashing lights from below. The water bubbled, then both of the saucers rose out of the water and took off.

The merchant captain told the naval captain to report the incident, as he wasn’t going to look foolish to his company. According to procedure, the naval officer had to forward an incident report that ended up in some dusty file, probably near the Blue Book project.


That is an amazing story! Now everyone will want to buy your book! I think we mystery writers love to hear about inexplicable events.

Will you be writing another novel?
I am currently working on two projects, one involving the main characters from Cover-up. They will be in Sedona, AZ., then in several places in Canada and Alaska, and then will probably end up back in Sedona. It involves a body falling out of the sky, HAARP, and whatnot.

The other one is a retired couple that move to Homer, AK., open a coffee shop, and fall into all kinds of problems.

This will be my first dip into mystery writing, as I prefer action, thriller stories.

Do you and L.C. ever write together?
No, we haven’t. I prefer action/thriller over mystery. But we do help each other over the humps sometimes.

L. C., you’ve written many books, and the latest is called Why Casey Had to Die. That’s a catchy title. Why DID Casey have to die? Is it because he came to bat and struck out?
Cute! I like your answer—so much more original than mine. I’m taking the fifth in here. The answer to that is an integral part of the story and the answer is revealed at the very end. All I can say is, read and find out.

How did you get started in the mystery-writing biz?
Writing is something I’ve always enjoyed doing. I feel life is a mystery, so I’m fascinated with the concept of mysteries. Naturally, when it came time to write the novel, I chose the mystery genre—haven’t regretted it at all. But before I wrote mysteries, I freelanced for magazines. There’s an interesting story as to how that came about.

While in college, I had two term papers to do. One was for a professor who was known for his strict rules. I spent all my time doing the paper for him. I finished the paper four days before it was due. It was then that I remembered I had another term paper to write. I grabbed my finished paper, along with its note cards and bibliography cards. I dashed off to the library. I began by re-reading the paper. I found two typing errors (days before computers, sigh.) I made a mental note to retype those two pages.

I set everything to the side and began the research for the second paper. At 2:00 AM when the library closed, I grabbed everything and headed home. The next morning I reached for the finished term paper so I could retype those two pages. It was then I remembered I had set the paper to the side and left it there. I ran to the library, but it was gone: the paper, the outline, the thesis statement, the note cards, the bibliography cards. Everything. Just like that. Gone.

I knew if I approached the professor and told him what happened, he’d say “Tough luck. Paper is due Friday.” I had no choice but to redo it. Somehow in the next three days I redid the entire paper and finished the other paper.

When I got the papers back, on the paper I had to redo I got a C and it only had one comment: And you want to be a writer--ha! On the other term paper, I got an A+ with the comment that this was publishable if I took off the footnotes and revised it. I went to the professor and he showed me the ins and outs of magazine writing. That was my first published work--and I got to be a writer--ha!

Success is the best revenge, eh? Did you read mysteries as a child?
Unfortunately, I was a late bloomer. I read animal books as a child, then somehow in my early 20’s I was introduced to mysteries and I’ve been hooked ever since. That makes it ten years now that I’ve been reading mysteries since I’m only in my 30’s. . . Hmmm. . .

Me, too. What sorts of things do the Haydens do for fun?
Need you ask????

Oh, my. I walked right into that one.
Okay, seriously, we geocache (in fact, Why Casey Had to Die deals with geocaching), scuba dive, travel, read, go to movies, take walks, go camping, and write. Rich is a ham (amateur radio operator and a computer geek) and I like working with my hands: creating crafts, painting, that sort of thing.

In perusing your website, I see that you two take many trips, including several to Alaska. Is Alaska a special place for you?
All you’ve got to do is mention Alaska and Rich begins to drool. I don’t know what it is about that state that completely captivates him. As for me, I do love Alaska, but I also love Hawaii, Texas, New Mexico, Florida. . .

Do you like traveling together?
Love it, love it, love it. Rich gets to drive and I get to write. Oh, yeah.

L.C., you host a talk show for MWA called Murder Must Air. Is this fun? How do you prepare for an individual show?
I love doing Murder Must Air. It really is a blast and I’ve “met” some really cool people. When Cindy Daniel, Task Force MWA officer, called me and asked me if I was interested in being their talk show host, I never realized how much work it involved. But every bit is worth it. I’m really having a blast.

To prepare for each show, I need to contact the speakers. Once they agree to be my guests, I do background research so when we do talk it sounds like I know everything about whatever topic we’re covering. Then I prepare a set of questions, which I send to them. We discuss them. I send them the Speaker’s Agreement Form so they can be paid. All during this time, I’m answering emails that come to ontheair@mysterywriters.org. I promote the show wherever I can, inviting people to call in. I’ve found that while people do call, they don’t ask questions. Most of them, in fact, email and ask me to ask my guest this or that. After the promoting is done, I contact the guests one more time to make sure they have the right contact information and finalize any plans. Now it’s show time!


Afterwards, there are thank you cards to be sent, there's listening to the show to make sure all is okay before contacting the audio folks. They send the recording to Beth at MWA so she can be put it on the national website for everyone to hear at his convenience. Oh yes, there’s also the writing of the articles to inform everyone who next month’s guests will be.

Once that is done, I start the procedure all over again.

L.C., you taught high school for 26 years and then retired. I teach high school; should I retire? Do you recommend it? Don’t make me too jealous.
Go for it! Retirement is sooooo wonderful. I’m so busy now I wonder how I managed to find time to teach. I don’t think I ever really retired, I just changed jobs.

Teaching has its great rewards and I loved doing it when I was doing it, but now I’m free to do what I want when I want.

School’s out! School’s out!

I said NOT to make me jealous. :) On your website you say that I should ask you about your FBI story, which coincides with the publication of your first book, Who’s Susan? So what IS this story?
One day the principal called me over the intercom and told me he wanted to see me during my prep period. That was 6th period, I remember so well. I was a good little teacher, so I didn’t worry.

When I walked into his office, instead of the principal being there, there was a man dressed in a suit, tie, vest. He reached behind him and locked the door. Okay, what do I do now? He reached for his back pocket and showed me his badge. “I’m Detective So-and-So from the police department.”

My first thought was oh no, one of my students must have really done something bad.
He asked me to sit down. I did and once again he reached into his back pocket, took out a card, and said, “You have the right to remain silent. You have the right to have an attorney present. . .” and he continued to read me my rights.

What’s going on? I thought. I don’t even speed! He shoved a piece of paper between us. “This is what it’s all about,” he said. I looked at the paper and nodded. My first book, Who’s Susan? had just been published and I had been talking to my editor. He said, “Now, L. C., if you want people to buy your book, you’ll have to come up with a brilliant campaign. If they go to the bookstore and say they want to buy. . .and they forget the name of the book, you’ve lost that sale.”

So I thought and thought and came up with a brilliant campaign. I would send out three different mailings to a select group. The first would have no return address and the paper inside the envelope would simply say, Do you know who Susan is?

I knew that as soon as people received this first promotional piece, they would be wondering what’s all this about? Who is Susan? They’d start talking and word would spread.
Two weeks later the same people would get the second mailing. Again, there would be no return address and this time the paper would read: Did you find out who Susan is? Check your mailbox for a future answer.

Again, tongues would wag. Word would spread.

Two weeks later, the same people would receive the final advertising and this time the envelope would have a return address and the paper inside would explain that Who’s Susan? was my first novel and I was inviting them to the Barnes and Noble signing I was going to have. That was how it was supposed to work out.

This is how it actually turned out: after people received the first mailings, they called the police because someone was sending them an antiabortion campaign through the mail. How they got that out of the flyer, I have no idea. Naturally, the police ignored it because they have more important things to pursue. But the callers insisted that the police do something about it.

My problem is that I’m basically a lazy person. The post office was two blocks away from the high school where I taught. But did I choose to go to the post office? Nope. I mailed the letters from the school’s mailbox. That made it a federal offense. They had to call the FBI.

Now the FBI knew it couldn’t be an antiabortion campaign. They knew it was much more. It was a new drug, called Susan. So they brought in an undercover agent to ask the students about the new drug. The students simply shrugged and asked, “What new drug?”

When that didn’t work out, they knew they had made a mistake. It wasn’t a drug at all, but a gun movement, code name Susan. Again, they brought in another undercover agent to come investigate. Again, the students shrugged and asked “What gun movement?”

“So who’s Susan?” the frustrated agent asked.

“That’s Mrs. Hayden’s new mystery novel,” one of my students answered.

In the meantime, I was in the principal’s office, having my Miranda Rights read.
Sometime, it doesn’t pay to advertise!

Oh my gosh! You'd think they'd try to get that info BEFORE they read you your rights! By the way, if I send you some money, can you send me some Susan? See, my drug lingo is so unbelievable. I should have said "hook me up" or something. I have to work on my dialogue.

What made both of you decide to use your initials instead of your first names? Is that just how it’s done in El Paso?
L. C.’s story:
Prior to writing mysteries, I freelanced for several magazines. One of them was the treasure magazines. I researched and wrote the article. Rich took the pictures. I sent it in. It came back. “Thanks, but we’ve just bought a similar piece.” I tried again. It came back. “Thanks, but we’ve just assigned this to someone else.”

I tried again. It came back. The articles always came back. Filled with frustration, I asked aloud, not really expecting an answer. “This is exactly what they want. Why are they not publishing me?”

Rich picked up the magazine and pointed to the title page. “Look at the articles. They’re by John, by Steve, by Mike, no Marys, no Susies, no Elsies" (my real name is Elsie).

This was on the days before computers (told you I was only in my 30’s!) so I took out the first rejected manuscript and retyped the first page. The only change I made was the byline. I changed it from Elsie Hayden to L. C. Hayden.

The article was immediately accepted. So was a second, and a third. . . I got used to using the initials and when it came time to write my mysteries, it felt natural to continue to use L. C. instead of Elsie.

Rich’s story:
Well, I don’t have a great story like L.C.’s. I’m just a lazy person, and thought that using initials was a lot shorter than using my name, and it “sorta” started a tradition.

What writing projects are you working on now?
Since Rich already answered this, I’ll answer this all by my lonesome self. I am busy working on the next Harry Bronson adventure. This time he is in Custer State Park, Georgetown, CO, and the Twin Cities in MN.

I’ve also started a new series and am shopping around for an agent and publisher. This one is about a loveable reporter in S. Lake Tahoe who gets into all sorts of adventures.

I’m also working on a sequel to my angels book, Angels Around Us. If you have an angel story you would like to share, I’m all ears.

Finally, I’ve written my first two children’s books. They’re both picture books. I haven’t submitted them to anyone yet and don’t plan to do so for a while. I’d like to promote this book in my grandson’s school and classroom. Next month, March 07, he will turn two, so I have a little bit of time to wait.

I do have one horror novel out, The Drums of Gerald Hurd, but I don’t think I’ll be writing any more horror novels.

How can readers find out more about L.C. Hayden’s mysteries and R.L Hayden’s Roswell novel?
Please check out our websites: http://www.booksbyhayden.com/ has three sections. One is
L. C.’s part. The middle part belongs to us (our trips, our whatevers) and the last part is R. L.’s. In addition, I, L. C., have an “official” website: www.lchayden.freeservers.com.

Thanks for talking with me.
Thanks to you. This was a blast for both of us!
L. C. and R. L.

Lillian Stewart Carl on Tolkien, Mary Stewart, and her own Scotland-Inspired Mysteries

  Thanks for chatting with me, Lillian.You are best friends with Lois McMaster Bujold and your favorite writer is J.R.R. Tolkien. We know you are a mystery writer, but have you written any science fiction?
My first publishing credits were for four fantasy novels and several fantasy and science fiction short stories. One of the latter, “Pleasure Palace”, set on a moon of Jupiter, actually garnered an award nomination. Lois and I used to write bits and pieces of stories for each other when we were teenagers---and believe me, she was a better writer then than most people could ever hope to be! It was she who introduced me to science fiction and fantasy in general and Tolkien in particular.

She came back from a trip to Europe with The Fellowship of the Ring, not realizing at the time that it was a trilogy. When the book didn’t really end she thought it was “one of those weird British things”. Then we discovered the complete trilogy and, oh my, there was no looking back. (For the record, we both like the recent movies a great deal.)

Like Betty Webb and others I’ve interviewed, you love Scotland. What is it that draws you to this place?
Physical beauty combined with strong emotion. Its history is filled with enough dramatic incidents to inspire a legion of fiction writers---which, indeed, it has. I find the modern Scots’ bemusement with his own history to be another inspiration. Traveler H.V. Morton was thinking of the Scottish Borders when he wrote, “They are a queer compromise between battlefield and fairyland,” but you can apply that to the entire country---and then include the uneasy bedfellow of the modern heritage industry. It’s all grist for my mill.

Besides, after spending most of my life in hot, dry, brown, Texas, the rocky coasts, fresh cool breezes, and the misty green hills of Scotland are like catnip to me.

You wrote that “Soon after finishing Ashes to Ashes, which is about a woman from Missouri named Rebecca working in a replica of a Scottish castle, I visited the real castle and discovered the tour guide was a woman from Oklahoma named Rebecca.” Wow! And did you know that Lincoln had a secretary named Kennedy and Kennedy had one named Lincoln? AND you and I have both had cats named Holly! :)
I’m a firm believer in congruencies and coincidences and correspondences. These things happen to me so often I barely notice them any more. It’s the equivalent of opening a reference book at random and finding exactly what you need on that page. Some of it seems fantastical, yes, but then, human beings tend to look for patterns. After all, how many times have I walked into the site of one of my stories and *not* found someone with one of my characters’ names?

Let’s talk about your books. Your last book, The Secret Portrait, takes place in Scotland. How did you come up with the premise of the book?I’m a member of the Clan Stewart Society of America. Many of the members have a sentimental if not exactly rational attachment to the Stuart/Stewart dynasty of Scotland and later Britain. The last Stuart pretender to the throne was Bonnie Prince Charlie, a pillar of the Scottish tourist industry and quite a controversial figure---was he dashing and courageous or was he an egomaniac who got a lot of people killed during his 1745 uprising?

Several years ago a book was published titled The Forgotten Monarchy of Scotland by the self-styled Prince Michael of Albany---a sprig of very minor European nobility who claims to be a legitimate descendant of Charlie and therefore the proper heir to the throne of Britain. Right.

This book is one of the most amazing mad-mouse rides through history since Holy Blood, Holy Grail, one of the inspirations for The Da Vinci Code---into whose territory it strays a time or two.

It was a member of CSSA who proved that Michael wasn’t even who he said he was, let alone a descendant of Charlie---something that I, though a historian only by avocation, noticed pretty darn quickly.

But then, as a novelist, I thought, what if…. And The Secret Portrait resulted.

The actual secret portrait is of Charlie, “the king over the water”. It was painted after the uprising which terrified the English (and a lot of Scots) so badly that redcoats were engaging in a campaign of ethnic cleansing in Highland Scotland. It’s an anamorphic painting---it looks like just a smear of paint until it’s reflected in a silver cylinder. Confused? There’s a picture of it on my website.

Many of your books are available at Fictionwise.com. How did you become involved with e-books? Are there advantages to e-book publishing over traditional publishing?
I’ve never had anything published only in electronic form, so can’t compare. Fictionwise does not publish original material. It provides electronic versions of material that was print-published to begin with. From my point of view, it’s a great way to present my work in yet another form.

You have traveled extensively. I’ll put you on the spot the way I did Bob Morris: What’s the most beautiful place in the world?
I’m tempted to say Tolkien’s Middle Earth, but I suppose that technically that’s another world. There are days when I’d say that the most beautiful place in the world is my own home. I’m a Cancer and I do love curling up in my shell.

Seriously, though, the world is so full of beautiful places it’s hard to say: Sissinghurst Garden in England, the Acropolis in Athens, the shores of Lake Superior…. If I’m forced to choose, I’d choose the northern coast of Scotland---rocky headlands, green rolling hills, the islands of Orkney rising like Tir nan Og (the Celtic Otherworld) from the sea. This area is not on the main tourist route. I have a good friend there who has taken my husband and me to ancient stone circles, ruined castles, and secluded bays that we had to share only with sheep and seabirds.

You are attending many conventions in the next couple of years. Do you find that these are helpful to your sales?
I’ve attended quite a few conventions the last few years and would really like to cut down, but …. Are they helpful to my sales? I keep telling myself they are. If nothing else, it’s good to sit down with friends and colleagues---I can’t communicate entirely by e-mail, although there are times when I’ve tried!

You have a book coming out this month called The Murder Hole and one in 2007 called The Burning Glass. What are they about?
These are books two and three in the Jean Fairbairn/Alasdair Cameron series, which begins with The Secret Portrait. I describe the series as: “America’s reject and Scotland’s finest on the trail of all-too-living legends”.

Jean’s an American ex-academic and Alasdair’s a Scottish cop. They meet during the murder case spawned by what Alasdair calls “charlieoverthewaterism”---the romanticization of Scotland’s history. I deliberately set up the series with a different mystery in each book but with the arc of their relationship running from book to book.

In The Murder Hole they meet again at Loch Ness, when a monster-hunter’s boat is blown up and one of his assistants is killed. In The Burning Glass they go off to the Borders together, intending a honeymoon of sorts. Of course mysterious events intervene, this time stemming from the occult legends surrounding Rosslyn Chapel---a place that was doing just fine, occultly-speaking, *before* the Da Vinci Code juggernaut came rolling through.

Like all my books, this series explores the tension between legend and reality. Not that there’s anything wrong with legends, Jean would say. We use them to make sense of ourselves and our world. It’s Alasdair who says that legends go wrong when true believers refused to recognize that they are legends.

You attended your son’s wedding in India. How did this come about?
My younger son met his wife when she was a bridesmaid at his brother’s wedding. While she’s a native of Houston, her family is originally from Hyderabad---and has many relatives living there---so that’s where the wedding was held. It was an amazing experience, with what seemed like all the flowers in Asia and the women wearing colorful fabrics and jewelry that made my eyes bug out.

You have been compared to Mary Stewart. I LOVE Mary Stewart. Which of your books would I find most Stewart-ish?
I used to read her all the time when I was in my teens. One of my favorite fan letters asked if I was by any chance her daughter! Alas, we’re no relation.

Shadows in Scarlet might be similar to Stewart, if rather more frank sexually---you have romantic complications played out against a long-hidden secret. Memory and Desire and Ashes to Ashes might also evoke Stewart, in a way, with each main character on a quest that brings her both romance and danger.

You’ve also been compared to Daphne Du Maurier, and as we saw earlier, one of your characters is named Rebecca. Was this an homage?
Yes, as a matter of fact it was. I never said so in the book, Ashes to Ashes, but I intended for my character’s mother to have named her after the book character. Which I think tells you something about the mother, who we never meet but who is described much more like Du Maurier’s nameless bride than like Rebecca de Winter herself.

The reviewer who evoked Du Maurier, however, was referring to Memory and Desire, which has a major character who is dead before the book starts.

You consider the British Isles your “home away from home” and you love history. Do you ever feel that you lived there in another life?
I wouldn’t be at all surprised. The place is very comfortable and familiar. I’ve been reading books and watching movies and TV shows set there all my life and have been fortunate enough to visit there something like fourteen times---I’ve lost count.

Do you have any British or Scottish ancestors?
So far as I can tell by my ancestor’s names, they all were British.

I haven’t been able to trace the Stewart side of my family across the Atlantic---they arrived in the US well early in the 19th century. But my coloring and complexion shouts Scottish. When I’m there I blend right in. And I have the gene for appreciating bagpipe music, so that counts for something!

My paternal grandmother was named Bridges. Her father claimed that our family is descended from the Bridges who was the Lord Lieutenant of the Tower of London during the days of Henry VIII. One afternoon in the British Museum I literally stumbled across the prayer book that Ann Boleyn inscribed and gave him on her way to the scaffold.

I also had an ancestor named Armstrong, a name from the Scottish Borders, who fought in the American Revolution.

What are some of your favorite books?
Other than The Lord of the Rings, which is the only book I loved passionately as a teenager and still love passionately, I have great respect for A.S. Byatt’s Possession and Umberto Eco’s The Name of the Rose. I thoroughly enjoy Barbara Michaels/Elizabeth Peters’ books. (You’d never guess, reading Ashes to Ashes and other of my romantic-suspense-leaning novels.) I like the classic mysteries of Ellis Peters and Dorothy L. Sayers, who evoke their settings and characters so beautifully. In non-fiction, it’s hard to beat travel writer Jan Morris. And of course I’m a big fan of Lois McMaster Bujold.

How can readers learn more about Lillian?
Ye olde website has information on all my novels and stories, including photos of some of the places that appear in them, as well as a short biography and links to various interviews. It is, easily enough, www.lillianstewartccarl.com. And that’s stEWart rather than stUart, the Scottish rather than the French spelling. (Let’s not go to Stiubhart, the Gaelic version!)

Thanks so much for answering all my questions!
Thank you so much for asking such great ones!